Sebastian Pottmeier – German Baritone Saxophonist of Alliage Quintet – 08

Barry Cockcroft: Sebastian, I’d love to know a little bit about how you got started on the saxophone. Sebastian Pottmeier: I started playing the saxophone in my hometown of Krefeld, which is in Germany, near to Dusseldorf and Cologne (Köln), in 1980, a long time ago, with a charming and enthusiastic teacher. He immigrated from Hungary to Germany, and he was full of energy and musical ideas that he liked to share and to give to his pupils. He built up a very lovely, large over the next 40 years with both clarinet and saxophone pupils. This was my first contact, and I look back with good memories. Barry Cockcroft: Was he a saxophone specialist? Sebastian Pottmeier: Actually, he was a clarinetist and saxophonist. I think he was more of a clarinet player. He fell in love with the saxophone though, so he became more and more a specialist in saxophone. What he gave to us were more musical ideas, and not so much the thinking about an instrument. What he gave was the ability to listen. We listened more like string players. Violin, and cello. Maybe I played my first concert without having heard the saxophone being demonstrated by a professional saxophone player or even a recording. Barry Cockcroft: Do you think the idea of listening first to music as opposed to a particular instrument, do you think that’s a way of learning that’s still valid today? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yes, that depends on the teacher and the pupil. Everybody’s so different. You have to find out a good way to communicate what you want to give and what the person wants to receive. Then both can be developed. So, yes, I think the music is first. Barry Cockcroft: I remember working with a pianist once, and I was playing a piece that started off softly for the saxophone. As I started playing, and he stopped me, and he’s like, “But it’s supposed to be soft.” And I’m like, “Yeah, but you know, it’s a saxophone, and it’s the low notes, and it’s a bit loud down there”. “No, no, no, no, no. The music says to play soft.” Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah. Barry Cockcroft: And I’ve sometimes noticed other instrumentalists, non-saxophone players, make no compromise. They always put the music first, and they ignore any technical difficulty because they’re just trying to get the best out of the music that they can. And I guess that’s an advantage of listening to different instruments, perhaps because we don’t know the technical difficulties, and therefore all we can hear are the musical aspects. Sebastian Pottmeier: You have to be sure that a saxophone is never a violin and or a voice. Each instrument is different and independent. Maybe playing softly on saxophone in the very low register, you have to play it a little louder than you could on the violin. Otherwise, you have to follow the musical idea. You have to bring both sides together; you have to combine. So if it’s just a more noisy note, then that is the real note, the real character of the note. It’s not only the dynamic, but it’s also the character and the sound. If it’s more of a very soft sound, if it sounds a little louder, I prefer that the note is noisy rather than where there is no quality of tone. Barry Cockcroft: From your student days, is there one piece of advice you could pass on to other students who are perhaps starting out? Sebastian Pottmeier: Don’t take yourself so important. The important thing is not you; it’s the music. Barry Cockcroft: Do you think it’s different to be a student now than a few years ago when you were starting out? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yes. Mainly I can talk about what’s happened in Germany. The situation for music students is different than 20, 30 or 40 years ago. Very, very different. In schools, the education changed; and also the point of view of the government changed for education. And the interest from the government in culture changed. And maybe the whole country changed. The culture and music became more and more focused on something else. The pupils, each day, have to go to school longer; they have less free time; most of them have a lot of different hobbies. They do sports; they do what they want. Then they have to make music. Of course, everything is fine but for all these things that they do, they need time, and they need to concentrate on things. If you do many things, it’s challenging. Especially in music schools, when they start playing, they started more in groups and less one on one teaching. Especially for the saxophonists, when they came to the university or the Conservatorium to begin the studies, they think they will be very famous and playing as a soloist The reality is that the most of them don’t become a renowned soloist. When you look worldwide, I don’t know if anybody is living as a soloist. So the soloists, we know they are all teaching, I think, more or less. So you have to explain and to discuss that with these pupils, what they want to do after. At this moment in Germany, I think there are a lot that thinks chamber music to be a good idea. But the teaching, when you ask them, the group that wants to teach, this is… They said that they accept that they will teach after studies, but it’s not their first choice. But in life, we know that at first, they will teach. The next problem is, there are not enough jobs for teaching. There are many pupils, students from other countries, coming to Germany. So you have to think about what you want to do and if it’s realistic. Barry Cockcroft: There is some competition, then, for the teaching jobs that exist? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah. Barry Cockcroft: That means opportunities have to be won. Sebastian Pottmeier: For example, in the saxophone class in Cologne, all these students of Daniel Gauthier, for example, are very talented people from around the world. There are a lot of Spanish people for instance, also some other people there. Most of them are not from Germany, right? But many of them want to stay in Germany, especially in Cologne. So you can imagine, all these good saxophone players, what they can do in Cologne? They can work in a private music school; there are teachers from everywhere teaching. This is very good, but there will be the moment where nobody needs another teacher for the saxophone. They have to seek other ways and to look for what else they want to do. Barry Cockcroft: Now, we first met more than 20 years ago, I believe in 1996. You and I both chose to do something that was similar in a sense. We decided to leave our home country, move to another country, and study not only with some specialist teachers but also study in a different language. Now, what drew you to move to another country and to accept those challenges? What inspired you to go and study in France? Sebastian Pottmeier: Our class was an international saxophone class, with two well-known teachers, Marie-Bernadette Charrier and Jean-Marie Londeix. We had both a very musical and very friendly time. The whole atmosphere for us was great, and we were close. Everybody was looking for something unique, the instrument, the music, contemporary techniques, ideas, art, and wine, and culture. Everything was so close so that we too became closer. Everyone took something from this from that he needed. Everybody was different, but everybody took a lot with them. Barry Cockcroft: I remember one thing that you used to do in our classes that used to drive our teacher, Marie-Bernadette Charrier, absolutely crazy. We would be playing scales at the start of every lesson, and at the end of every scale, you would always do a nice rall with a little bit of vibrato. Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah. Barry Cockcroft: “No vibrato, no vibrato.” She was always so strict with the technical aspects. I can’t help thinking that you were so drawn to making everything that you did expressively. All these years later, you’re playing in a musical group, the Alliage Quintet, that has made a feature of playing expressive music. I can’t help wonder if you were drawn to being that kind of expressive saxophone player. Do you remember those conflicts? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yes, I remember them well. And it took me some time not to do that. The day arrived that I understood what the goal of these technical sports was, and then I could stop and control this. Beforehand, having never done it that way, could not understand the purpose of playing a note without musical interest. In my point of view, to start the warming up with scales and every time with the same routine, like cleaning your teeth… I think the scales are not the best way to warm up. When you look to all the sportsmen, what they do, they don’t start with a world record in 100 metres to warm up. They do a little jogging, they warm-up all these small muscles, and the body can function doing want you to want it to do for you. For us, we want to play a brass instrument. We need air, and we need to control the muscles. I think what’s more important is to bring your body in this shape and form, to make a real sound with your body and your instrument. It is easiest to move the fingers. Articulation is very complicated, et cetera, but all this without breathing, it’s nothing. So what I have for myself and my students is more like breathing exercises or exercises for sound, to relax. And once you have done your warm up, you can start to play some music. Once you feel good with the instrument, then you can work on your scales. If you do the vibrato at the end, it could be nice, but I would say now I don’t like it either. Barry Cockcroft: Is there something that you practised as a student that you still do today? Sebastian Pottmeier: No. Barry Cockcroft: No? Sebastian Pottmeier: No. Barry Cockcroft: That’s very interesting. Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah. Barry Cockcroft: So would you say that there are things that you do to learn an instrument, and then there are things that you do to play an instrument? Sebastian Pottmeier: It’s just that I have changed my mind. When I started, my first years with my first teacher, we didn’t have this kind of warm-up routines. We just started with music. When you come to a lesson, maybe you walked in at three for your lesson, and you usually have the lesson for 30 to 45 minutes. When you go home at seven, you know that it was a very, very helpful lesson. There was a lot of time. Once there was the moment, okay, he said, “The next person is coming – go to another room and practise.” I came, and then practised, and then he comes, and then wait. Half an hour later you have another lesson, it was circulation. In these early years, I haven’t known about warm-ups. After my studies in Germany, of course, I practised scales et cetera. And then in France, it was more extreme. The method of Londeix, and then the Marie-Bé (Charrier) method, I think are similar. And after, yes, I changed my mind. Barry Cockcroft: One thing I’ve noticed with your playing over the years is you seen drawn to the lower voices. Would you know what it is about the baritone saxophone or the low pitches that you like? Is it because you have a deep voice? What is it? Sebastian Pottmeier: You know, everybody has different taste. So I feel very comfortable with the deep voices. I like the cello, and I also love the tenor saxophone. Of course the baritone, this is first. I don’t know why. You know when you play a low A on the baritone, and your eyes are moving as fast of the vibration of the reed, and your teeth, everything is moving, there’s a little vibration? I like that. The vibration makes me feel good. Because of the high notes, they … I played soprano, sometimes I do, but I don’t feel as good. Barry Cockcroft: I was looking in your saxophone case before, and I noticed that the saxophone, it’s not the shiniest, latest, newest instrument. It seems like it’s been with you for a long time. Sebastian Pottmeier: The instrument, I started to play this instrument in 1986. Maybe it was 1985. And the saxophone and me, the baritone, we are nearly the same age. Barry Cockcroft: Wow. Sebastian Pottmeier: So we are a very close couple. The saxophone is built up from metal. There’s an alliage [alloy] of different metals. And once the metal begins to vibrate more and more and more, I think there’s a relation about how you blow in your instrument and how the instrument reacts. So, for example, I have tried instruments that don’t feel good, because I have the feeling that there are no good vibes with the instrument. And there are other instruments that you feel good. And this instrument and me and my body, we feel very close together. I think after all these years, we became closer and closer. Because the way I blow, the instrument reacts on how I blow inside of it. And maybe it’s foolish, but I feel like this. Barry Cockcroft: It sounds more like a string player talking about the materials of the instrument. The way you play it almost affects the metal. Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah. There’s an effect. Barry Cockcroft: Now, you mentioned this word, “alliage”. Could you explain a little bit why your group is called the Alliage Quintet? Sebastian Pottmeier: The idea of this name of the group was not from me, it’s from Daniel Gauthier. But it is a perfect name, I think, very close to what we want to do. Alliage, the meaning of the combination of copper, zinc, and the French term is alliage [alloy]. The group is also a close combination of different characters, instruments, sounds, ideas and gender. But very close. The combination of something different but to being together. And when you listen to a recording or see a concert, hopefully, you’ll find that there’s something that we do together. Barry Cockcroft: You’re a founding member of Alliage. Have you found, over time, that the way that you and Daniel play together has evolved? Or are you kind of the foundation of the style of the group? What’s it like playing with the same person in a group for so many years? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yes, this is very important for a chamber music group, to know each other. And I think our playing has developed in the last years in different ways. And not only the playing; it’s also the listening and the understanding. You can say this when you make a musical phrase. You can imagine which direction the other person you know wants to take. But it’s not only on this level. It’s also: when you listen to a sound, you know which kind of sound, you know the sound, the different colours of the sound. And then you can play with it. It’s interesting. Yeah, it’s good. So, for example, for our tour in Australia with the Alliage Quintet and Sabine Meyer, the pieces are the same in every concert. I think there are ten concerts. And of course in Europe, we often played this programme. Maybe there are a few pieces we have changed. But the music we chose is all transcriptions from orchestral pieces. The music is so good that it motivates the whole group to perform for each concert something new. And this is cool. So we played yesterday and today, and you don’t feel when you go onstage that you’re going to play, “Oh, let’s go, we have to play now again the Stravinsky, oh, no, this is boring.” No, “Let’s go, it’s now, yeah! Very nice. I think on the third movement I’m not too fast.” You know? There’s “Yeah, a little more”. Yeah, you know. With enthusiasm, I would say. Barry Cockcroft: Your programme tonight in the concert is made up of transcriptions of music from other instruments. Is that a particular focus of your group? Sebastian Pottmeier: When we started our saxophone ensemble, Daniel and I played a lot, not all, but a big part of the saxophone quartet repertoire. We felt a little bored with it. Except the contemporary music, which in this group we don’t focus on, but on classical music. Once we started to play a piece with piano and saxophone, we changed our point of view of playing chamber music. The piano gives us so many more possibilities that after a while we just decided to play only concerts with piano and saxophone. And now in our programme, we’re playing with piano, and maybe there are not always four saxophones, there are two. Typically, we make the group bigger and smaller. Bigger with guests sometimes, like Sabine, or with violin or voice. And now the repertoire is chosen by us. We have concepts of musical ideas and works, and we do brainstorming, and then we develop new programmes. There’s an interesting point. Because the way of classical saxophone playing, the sound of the saxophone has a little bit of the character of a chameleon. So it depends on what you want, you can change the colour, and you can be like another instrument. You will never be a flute or a horn or a cello, but you can create an illusion that makes something different, you can change the colour in a different direction. Like with your voice, you can try different things. And also with the articulation, of course. This is vital work in our rehearsal, to find the way to play a transcription. We don’t sight-read music, and then we are prepared for the concert. This is not the point. The point is that we know the original score very well, we know the sound of the score, the music, and then we try to make something from old to new. But we want to conserve the musical idea with this small group. We try to be serious, even if we are not so serious. Barry Cockcroft: You’re now in Australia doing an extensive tour, with ten concerts. It seems that travel is an essential part of your activities for this group. How do you manage to be away? I know that you have other work that you do, and you have a young family. How do you handle all of these activities? Sebastian Pottmeier: Well, you know, this is not the funny part of a tour. This is very complicated. This is difficult. It’s difficult for everybody who’s on tour. You have to organise a lot of things. My wife, she’s also a musician, a freelance jazz violinist. So you can imagine that we often have the situation where we both have to perform or to work at the same time. And now with the kids, it’s not so easy. So yeah, we try to do our best. Barry Cockcroft: Is there something else that you do outside of music? Sebastian Pottmeier: Outside of music? Barry Cockcroft: Yeah. Sebastian Pottmeier: Like? Barry Cockcroft: Do you have a hobby? Sebastian Pottmeier: Like a hobby? Yeah, I’m interested in many things, but I can’t spend much time on them. I’m interested in art, in literature, in people. I read philosophy. I don’t do any sports. I tried to do some jogging last year; I liked it a lot, but I had a problem with my knee, and I had to stop. But that was fun, that felt good. Barry Cockcroft: Is it true that one of your hobbies is drinking beer? Sebastian Pottmeier: No, that’s not true. This is not a real hobby. But I like good taste, that’s right. Also, beer could be very nice after a concert. What I found out when I went to Australia 20 years ago, compared to today, is that now in every place you can find an excellent beer. They have a very good IPAs and pale ales, which I like a lot. Otherwise, the Australian wine is fantastic. Especially the reds, really very good. And good food, of course. I don’t want to say that this hobby is wine and food, but… Barry Cockcroft: So now the truth is coming out. We’re getting to how you spend your time. Sebastian Pottmeier: You know, cooking is fine as well. You know, taste and living… What is music? In music, your ears are taking something. There could also be nothing, and then there is something. But you are focused on something you do with your ears. So your body is very rich in trying to understand more of the world. Barry Cockcroft: Is improvising something that forms part of the music that you play, even if it’s at home, or within your group? Sebastian Pottmeier: Absolutely. Maybe, of course, with the Alliage Quintet now, the score is very clear and written. But when you play your part, of course, you can decide this is a crescendo, or this is… you have to do this at this time. But there are certain freedoms to of course… it’s not improvisation, but you can do something with this material. You are not very free, but you can do something. Otherwise, for me, the improvisation in more contemporary is something vital for my musical understanding, for myself, and also for my students. And that’s also something that I do. Barry Cockcroft: We talked about you being a student, and we talked about your professional career. Another aspect of what you do is, of course, is teaching. Have you found that you teach how you were taught? Or have you evolved your style of teaching that you use with your students today? Sebastian Pottmeier: I think that my teaching changed a lot. My teaching is more personal, I would say. I have things to say, and I have things to give. I don’t want to give things that will be not understood, or misunderstood. So I try to provide that what is essential for me to give to a pupil. It’s more to know about music and what music is for you. For me, it is imperative that the music offers something to them. If the music does not give something to the students, I have to help them become interested in something. This could be a second tenor part from a big band tune, which is perhaps not the most interesting, to a Berio Sequenza, the Hindemith Sonata. But there’s a whole philosophy behind musical techniques. I don’t like this very limited technical playing. In this case, my teaching has changed, because when I start teaching, I followed the programme that went left and right that I put together to make: this, that, and then you have to do this, and then you have to follow this, this, this. I don’t think that this is musical thinking. Music is individual and personal. The combination is difficult, and I’m sure that I’m on the way to finding a right way. I haven’t found that yet. That’s a pity. But I’m still searching. Barry Cockcroft: If you just had one piece of music that you could play from now on, what piece of music would that be? Sebastian Pottmeier: It will be improvisation, I think. Barry Cockcroft: If you just had one hour to practice, how would you spend that hour? Sebastian Pottmeier: Low notes. Low notes, with some distortions, right. Barry Cockcroft: In your mind, who has been one of the most significant contributors to the saxophone? Sebastian Pottmeier: I don’t know if there’s only one, but I think in classical thinking from the French school, there’s Jean-Marie Londeix. Also without Sigurd Rascher, we don’t have all this repertoire. And we don’t want to miss Marcel Mule. But otherwise, when you listen to John Coltrane, there is something that could be more important for the saxophone. Barry Cockcroft: What is it about John Coltrane? Sebastian Pottmeier: To developing a completely different way of saxophone playing, from the beginning when you listen to the early Coltrane, and then to the last, the way to blow on the instrument and what’s coming out, that’s incredible. Barry Cockcroft: Do you make use of technology in your day-to-day musical activities, or do you find yourself stepping away from technology? Sebastian Pottmeier: I think I’m using MP3 players and iPods for listening, and in teaching, you can swap very fast to a recording on YouTube for just a minute. In a masterclass the other day in Brisbane, a girl was playing from a Courante from a Bach Cello Sonata, and it was a transcription by somebody. I asked her, “Have you ever seen the original?” She searched on the internet; I ask her to search, to find it very very quickly. And there was the autograph, and then when you look at the autograph, after just five minutes. Now very fast, technology, today, fantastic. And we look at the transcription and the original: my God, this is nothing to do with it. Everything is added to this transcription, dynamics, articulation, tonality. Oh. So after that, you play differently. That’s very good. Barry Cockcroft: Do you think that students are distracted by technology? Does it interrupt practice now? Does it get in the way? Or in a sense you just described, it’s constructive? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah, I think there are both sides always. When you start to interrupt your work with just a message, and then all this concentration break down, and you’re not focused on something, and that’s unfortunate. You lose your focus, your concentration. So you have to make a decision, when you work on something, don’t be in touch so much with social media or something else around you. Barry Cockcroft: If we learn from our mistakes, is it okay to make mistakes? Sebastian Pottmeier: Of course. Yeah. Absolutely. It doesn’t feel right to make mistakes, and we all know our mistakes, and it’s not so nice, but they’re essential so that we can make changes, to make it better. Barry Cockcroft: Tonight, you’re performing a recital in front of perhaps a thousand people. Is there something specific that you do before a performance that will help you play at your best? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yes, I do some breathing exercises. Demonstrating on the podcast, it’s difficult. But I have some. Barry Cockcroft: What happens if you don’t do that? How does it affect your playing? Sebastian Pottmeier: This is to make my muscles, especially all around the belly and under, over, et cetera, if they are not active of course I can play, but there’s not the sound that I want when I play. Barry Cockcroft: Is there something that you do to memorise music that you’d like to explain? Sebastian Pottmeier: If I can sing, I can play. I’m not a good singer, but when I am close to my instrument, and then when you came from a holiday, you’re not so close to your instrument, but when you’re close to your instrument … Barry Cockcroft: Could you give your younger self a piece of advice that you would have liked to have heard when you were starting out? Sebastian Pottmeier: That’s an excellent question. Not a long time ago, in other ways, I was thinking of this idea. Not only about the saxophone. The answer’s not so easy, but I would say two things. One is breathing, and the importance of it, and how we work on it. And not only contract a muscle, but there’s also something more. And the other is phrasing. Every style of music has its phrasing, but there’s still a phrasing. The worse case is music is without phrasing. When you listen to a singer, there’s always something that they have. If you are not a vocalist, you at least have words. And if it’s good music, there are words, you know. There’s something to tell, the story behind the music. The way that you tell somebody something can help them to understand, or to misunderstand, or to understand nothing. For every note you play, you have to find the way. And without breathing, this is not possible. Barry Cockcroft: What are some of the changes that you’ve seen in the saxophone during your career, and what are some of the things that have stayed the same? Sebastian Pottmeier: I think the level is much higher than years ago. There are many outstanding students: musically, technically, there are excellent players. There are great teachers around the world. So this has developed a lot, in classical saxophone. What I think, and this sounds maybe a little bad, but on the other hand, I can understand, what I found that has not changed is the bad taste in choosing music. For me, it’s okay to have bad taste sometimes. Of course, when you are a student, you like other things than when you are older. So, of course, your taste changes; hopefully, your taste changes. Otherwise, I remember some people, their taste doesn’t change, and that is a pity. But usually, it changes. So it is good to develop, and even if you have the best taste when you’re a student, you can improve more. Good taste is not just mine; I’m not sure about mine. That’s just in my point of view. Barry Cockcroft: How vital has recording been to you as a musician? Sebastian Pottmeier: I prefer to play concerts, of course. But to perform a concert, you have to find a concert, and to find a concert; you need a recording. So you have to do a recording. And if you want to promote a new tour or new concert, you have to present something of want you want to do. So what you need is a recording. You have to do that. Otherwise, the CD and the record market is indeed changing, with all these Spotify and YouTube things. Younger people, they don’t buy CDs; they have the music from the internet. I understand, I also listen to music from the internet. But I remember the time where I went into a record shop, which the black thing that turns very slowly, 33. I like to grab and touch a record. I also love the whirring… Barry Cockcroft: Sound distortion. Sebastian Pottmeier: Not really. A few years ago, I bought a new record player. Yeah, it’s good to have one. It’s different. Barry Cockcroft: Is there a recent project that you’ve been working on that is finishing up soon that you’d like to tell us about? Sebastian Pottmeier: No. There is something, but I don’t want to tell you now, it’s not finished yet. You have to wait a little bit more. Barry Cockcroft: We have to wait. Sebastian Pottmeier: Yes. I will tell you. Barry Cockcroft: Where’s the best place people can touch base with your activities? Sebastian Pottmeier: The best place is to call me. Barry Cockcroft: And the phone number… Sebastian Pottmeier: And the phone number, no, no. I have a website, there’s not much information, but there is some. There’s also an email. From the group, the Alliage Quintet, there’s a website, now we are doing a lot of concerts. In social media, as I said before, I was asked to use Instagram. So now I’m on Instagram, I just started that just before this Australian tour. And there are a few photos that I put on. It is funny to me. Barry Cockcroft: Now, you’ve had decades of involvement with music, and you’re making an incredible contribution to the saxophone. What do you see as being the next thing for you over the next 10, 20 years? What would you like to happen? Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah, that’s what I’m searching for. Me, I’m interested more in something I haven’t done so much, to work with electronics. I would like to work on the combination of an acoustic instrument and electronic. Barry Cockcroft: Sebastian, Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah. Barry Cockcroft: Thanks very much for our conversation today, and I think now- Sebastian Pottmeier: You’re welcome. Barry Cockcroft: -it’s time to go an indulge in one of our hobbies! Sebastian Pottmeier: The next hobby is the concert, after that, we go for some wine. Barry Cockcroft: Maybe after the concert. Thanks very much. Sebastian Pottmeier: Yeah, you’re welcome. Thanks to you.